#12 Managing Expectations and Keeping A Scoreboard (with Ron Kitchens)

Show Notes

Need ideas on how to manage people and manage expectations? We’ve got you covered! In this episode, we talk about this and the importance of keeping a scoreboard for your team to take them to the next level! Today’s special guest is Ron Kitchens - CEO of Southwest Michigan First and the author of Uniquely You. Ron: http://www.ronkitchens.com/ Ron’s podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ron-kitchens-always-forward-leadership-podcast/id915108664?mt=2 Catalyst University: http://www.catalystuniversity.me/ Hoopla: https://www.hoopla.net/

For more resources, visit https://www.reallifeleaders.com/podcast

Have a leadership question you want answered? Email [email protected] and you might even be in an episode!

Transcript

Chantel Ray: Hey guys, welcome to the Real Life Leadership podcast, where we share real life stories from real life leaders to help you become a better leader in your organization.

Chantel Ray: And we are so excited today: we have Ron Kitchens, who is the CEO of Southwest Michigan First and it's a company that was named one of the best places to work by the Wall Street Journal, Outside magazine and Brightest and Best. And he's also the host of Always Forward leadership podcast, which is great to listen to. So, we also have Heather Roemmich, so welcome.

Ron Kitchens: So excited to be here.

Chantel Ray: So today we are talking about managing people, managing expectations. And one of the things we're talking about is keeping a scoreboard. So before we get started, Ron, tell us about yourself. I know that you grew up in poverty and had to overcome a lot to get to where you are today. How do you feel like these struggles kind of shaped you into the leader that you are today?

Ron Kitchens: Yeah, I think too many of us want to hide our backgrounds. We see everybody else's highlight reels. We see their life and this amazing success and we think that's where they started. And so, you know, a lot of us who grew up poor and I have dyslexia and lots of reasons that I don't look like other people's highlight reel. But those unique things are what makes me successful. And so it was once I came to that kind of conclusion that if I can just embrace what makes me unique, that's what's gonna make me successful. And I think as we work with, and we work with thousands of leaders every year, those are the things that we want to share. And those are the things we share in our new book that comes out in May, is this idea that you are unique and embracing that, that's what people celebrate and want to be part of. Nobody wants a knockoff of someone else.

Chantel Ray: That's awesome. I love that. So, today we really want to dig in and we want to talk about using data and analytics to manage people and hold them accountable. And so, a lot of times people kind of are like, they're constantly like, okay, now we need to do this, now we need to do this, now we need to do this. But they don't have a clear outcome of, "Hey, what do I want to do?" and they don't have a clear scoreboard or they don't have any steps on how to get there. So, we love to tell stories here, so either Ron or Heather, do you guys have any stories that you can tell of a time where you kind of were like kind of all over the map, you weren't taking the time to measure what you were looking for or measure the outcomes or even have a scoreboard?

Ron Kitchens: So, I'll jump in. You know, we call it around here the Olivia Pope Question. So you know, the TV show Scandal, when it first started, the first couple of seasons, Olivia Pope the character always asks the same question of her clients: what do you want? And she'd repeat it three times. The client would never say what they wanted.

Ron Kitchens: And it dawns on us, most leaders who are at least early in their career or feeling like they're unsuccessful can't answer the Olivia Pope Question. So you don't know what you want, then you chase everything that gives you that mental high, that endorphin boost, that feels like progress. But the reality is it's like you're in the best neighborhood you can imagine. The street's beautiful, the houses are gorgeous, the lawns are all green and well mowed, and you're driving around in a cul de sac and you're putting lots of miles on your car, but you're not getting anywhere.

Ron Kitchens: But if the goal was to put miles on your car, you've won. But if the goal is to go forward, you've completely lost the day.

Chantel Ray: I love that.

Ron Kitchens: And I think that most leaders get into that. So what we do with our team, we live by the belief that everybody is the CEO of your own responsibilities. Well, if you're the CEO, there are very clear goals that you have to achieve at the end of the year, regardless of the organization. But you're also given the permission to succeed. You have the resources needed to succeed. You're expected to utilize those resources in a meaningful, timely manner, but you're held accountable. And mostly, you're held accountable publicly. Doesn't matter if you're a private or public company, people are going to know whether you succeed.

Ron Kitchens: So, we believe that a scoreboard helps us define what we want to achieve. Here are the things that are important to us now, what do we have to do to get there and how are we doing? And so the scoreboard becomes impactful. Too many people think of it as the stick and it really is the carrot. It's to remind us to utilize our resources in a really smart, dynamic way.

Heather: And I would say life, cause we had life before scorecards and it was frustrating because what we would do is we would say, okay, how's it going? And they would be like, great, I'm doing so good. And we were like, oh my gosh, that's so great. You're doing a great job. Pat on the back, pat on the back. And then we would get to the end of the year and we were like, wait, we didn't accomplish anything. So for example, like let's just say it was for recruiting, every month, they'd be like, "Well, we're adding this many agents and we're adding this many agents," and dah dah dah, and at the end of the year, we'd look at it and be like, "Wait, we have the same amount of agents that we started with. I thought we hired all these agents," and it's because we didn't have scorecards in place.

Heather: All year long, we were like, yay, yay, yay, yay, yay, and then we get to the end and we were like, we didn't achieve the result we were looking for because we weren't properly measuring it. And it left frustration on both ends. On their end because they thought they were doing a good job and on our end because they weren't achieving what we had set them out to be. So life before scorecards was quite frustrating. And I would say now it's just so much easier. It's much easier to manage when you have clear expectations.

Chantel Ray: Well, let's talk about mistaking activity for growth. Because what happens is you could just be like, yeah, I'm doing this activity, that activity. We're doing this. So, I'll give you an example and then I want you guys to give me an example similar to this so that people can really dial in on this because I think this is such an important thing for business owners.

Chantel Ray: So for example, for us, we did a lot of Facebook advertising and social media is really important in our business. And our social media department was like, "Oh my gosh, we're getting all these views," and "Oh, we're building this post and that post and we're putting up this." And then at the end of the time we were like, okay, let's measure how many leads are we getting from these posts?

Chantel Ray: So then, we're like, "All right, we're doing pretty good. We're getting all these leads, we're getting all these leads." But then we're like, but how many conversions, how many of these people are actually buying or selling a house? And then that's where we said, okay, we need to have a scoreboard that says this is the ads, this is how many leads it brought in, but not only how many leads it brought in, how many actually went to sales.

Chantel Ray: Ron, can you give an example like that, where you're mistaking activity for growth and profit?

Ron Kitchens: Yeah, I think that's a great point. So that goes back to my kind of cul de sac example. If I want to put miles on the car, you can drive around the cul de sac and your great cause, how beautiful it is, but you didn't actually achieve anything. And I served as a chairman of the board of the company a few years ago, I guess 10 years ago now. And they were using bingo cards. So, those are the cards in the back of a magazine that there used to be where you would, if you want more information from this company or on this product, check this, drop the card in the mail and we'll send you stuff.

Ron Kitchens: And they were using that, ads in the magazine and then these cards to gain referrals. And I said, you know, let's stop and look at this. And we go back and look and realize they had spent $5 million on advertising. They had gotten a lot of people who had said, give me your information. When we go to look, It was all their competitors who were asking for the information. They hadn't made one sale from all of this money that had been spent, but nobody ever bothered to validate it because the goal was well, which you can just get enough leads, those leads will transition into suspects, which will then transition into prospects, which will then be sales. Well they forgot to measure anything except that the first motion and they'd paid for that motion. Of course, you're going to get that. But you know as the old saying, those begin with the end in mind and work backwards.

Ron Kitchens: And if the end of mind is to have customers who purchase at a given price and given volume, then do the math backwards to what it takes to do that. But it's much easier just to go online and buy an ad and believe because you do that, you're going to have somebody else's success and it just doesn't work that way. You've got to measure it if it's gonna matter.

Heather: Yeah, I would say for us it was our recruiting, so when we first were kind of giving them an activity to do, it was 200 contacts and so every week people were doing their 200 contacts and it wasn't getting the results that we wanted. So, what we had to do was break down those contexts. Everyone's like, yeah, I contacted 200 people. I contacted 200 people, but we weren't seeing the interviews and the sign ons coming from that.

Heather: So what we had to do is break down the data a little bit more and say, okay, if you're just sending out 200 emails a week, that's not going to get you the goal that you need. The activity was not equaling the goal. We had to break it down to how many people did you have to actually speak to on the phone each day to get to that desired goal?

Heather: Now, some people obviously have better conversions than others. You know, they may be able to talk to 15 people versus 20 and get what they need, but we were measuring the wrong activity. We needed to be more specific. Sometimes we are very focused on just like number of activity but not what type of activity. And that's where we had to really dial it in to be able to get the result that we wanted on the end of that.

Heather: Plus, it's coaching. You know, if we can see that somebody is doing the specific calls everyday but not getting the desired result, now we know what we have to coach them on. So where we didn't have that measurement before.

Chantel Ray: Yeah. I have an example. This morning I was talking to one of my good friends that owns a competing real estate company and he was talking about his recruit and he said, "Well, if at the end of this year he doesn't recruit the number that I want, I'm going to let the manager go." And I said, "Well, how often are you meeting with him now? And kind of breaking it down, saying how many calls are you doing?"

Chantel Ray: So I'd like for you guys to talk about kind of annual reviews versus continuous feedback, so that you can make sure these scorecards one are accurate: are we really focusing on the right thing and two, how does the employee actually hit those goals and do they know how to get there?

Ron Kitchens: Yeah. So I think you're dead on there. We organizationally do not do annual reviews. We don't believe in them. We have what we call a 440. So, every 40 days you're sitting down with your mentor partner. Your leader is looking at your numbers and asking, what do you need to succeed? Where are your numbers good? Why are they good? Where are they behind? How do we help you accelerate to get to that? So it's about pouring in and mentoring on that.

Ron Kitchens: Our sales teams meet weekly to go over their numbers to talk about, hey, here's who we're servicing, here's what this looks like. Here's what's working, here's what's changing in the marketplace. And we have very seasonal sales time.

Ron Kitchens: So for us, it's critically important. Ignorance is the enemy. And if so we can come by a ways of talking about how do we pull back the curtain? What should we know and what do we know that we can trust? Heather talked about this idea that we've got lots of numbers that looked like success, but in the end, we know we can't trust those. So we have to have really good, consistent numbers that we can trust.

Ron Kitchens: But as a leader, a supervisor, whatever your title is, if you're not having regular communications and that person's not succeeding, it's your fault. As a leader, it is not their fault. If they're still on your team and not succeeding, you've got to look internal. Maybe you hired the wrong person, but if you hired the right person and they're failing, go look in the mirror, because you're the blame.

Heather: Yeah. And I believe you have to get feedback often and quick because otherwise they start getting in patterns of bad behaviors or just doing the wrong activities. And so specifically, we have daily stand ups that we look at certain measurements each day because if they're doing something, you know, if they're doing a wrong script or they're not doing the number of calls or they're contacting the wrong way, we want to correct that right away. Otherwise if you wait a month, three months, six or just annually, they're never going to achieve what you need.

Heather: And plus you can also spot problems or teachable moments quickly. Quickly and you catch them fast because the longer you keep a nonperforming person on your team, it is so costly to the leader in the company to keep somebody who's not performing. And if you can't recognize that quickly and either coach it in or coach them out, then you're really costing a lot to your business. We do it daily. We do a weekly, we do a monthly and then we do quarterly and annual reviews. And that way we are checking in with them all along the way.

Chantel Ray: Yeah so, talk about how you suggest to do scoreboards. We've kind of talked about two different things. One which would be a scoreboard, which would kind of be out in the open for everyone to see. And then a scorecard is kind of, you know, at the end of the month we have a personal scorecard.

Chantel Ray: I want you guys to talk about other companies and different kind of scoreboards and what they measured on. So let me give you an example and you guys can go from there. So, I know Payless Shoes is out of business, but they had said that one of the things they wanted to do is they wanted to make sure that they did a scoreboard based on a leading measure, not a lagging measure.

Chantel Ray: And so what they found out is when you measured somebody's feet, they realized that they had a higher chance of selling a pair of shoes. So they just did a scoreboard. And this scoreboard was just, it literally said, "Bobby 10," meaning he, you know, he rewarded and praised everything based on the amount of people that they measured their feet.

Chantel Ray: Can you guys give some other examples of leading versus lagging measures that you can put up in different businesses that can be scoreboards?

Heather: Yeah, I would say we visited some different call centers and some of the things that, you know, it's really important for them to have their stats up on TVs at all times. So they can see like call time, call loading, how quickly they're converting in the client, how long they're talking to the client, how long are off of the phone making notes.

Heather: And so giving them clear expectations up from the front. So, for example, like we've visited a call center for another real estate company and we could see their scoreboards up there and they can see in real time how they're comparing to their other colleagues based on all of these different metrics that they're held to each day. In positions like that, they need to see that all the time. They need to see where they stand. Gamification and scoreboards is really big right now where you can see like you just hit an award and like a thing flashes and fireworks come up and people like to see that cause it motivates them throughout the day to see where they are, pushing to their goals. So that's one example that we've seen visiting other companies.

Ron Kitchens: Yeah. And I was going to kind of go the same way that Heather went on that only with the idea of personal fitness watches. So this gamification of scoreboards and establishing this idea that we need constant continuous updates to compete.

Ron Kitchens: So this idea that you're getting messaged that, hey, you just hit this particular milestone, this many steps today. This diet, this whatever that is. But it's also giving you that competitive mark against your friends, against the people your group is in. And that is absolutely the future. You know?

Ron Kitchens: And gamification as Heather said, is going to be critical because no longer will a static number on a sign be enough to draw our attention and to not just inspire us but even inform us, because we just quit looking if it's not changing on a regular basis. I mean, most of us can't even watch TV and not look at our phones at the same time. We're not going to walk by a static board that changes every three months or even every month and draw attention to it.

Chantel Ray: So that makes me think one of the things that we have on our big screens, and we have big screens all over our office, but one of the things we have is we have the top agent of the month before and we have their picture and like here's number one, number two, number three, number four, and these different offices. And truthfully, that's a lagging measure. So, we really need to fix that because we shouldn't be like, you know, the Bible says, put the past behind and we need to move forward. But yeah, it's great to recognize what they've accomplished. I'm not downplaying that, that it, people love that. So that's important.

Chantel Ray: But you also have to be going, okay well, what are you doing now to make next year's month? So we could be having a scoreboard on who sets the most appointments? Who has the most buyer brokers? Who has the most listings? That is what's going to take us to the next level.

Heather: And that drives the competitive nature. Like, I'm very competitive. So like when Ron was talking about, you know, your watch or like when I'm doing my Peloton bike, there are certain badges you can earn and, I have literally been at night like my son was watching me, we're going up and downstairs because I had 30 calories left to burn to close all my, and it's like 9:30 at night and I'm like, "We can't go to bed yet. I have to hit this goal. I have done it 35 days in a row and I've got to stretch it to 37," and like people who are competitive want to see their name move up the board.

Heather: We have agents who are constantly watching the numbers and they're like, "I got to ratify one more. I've got to get to the top." And that's a perfect example of having these real time, active scoreboards where they can see where they stand at any given moment to push them to ratify one more contract, to push them to get one more listing, to get one more closing. That's what's going to rise the level of the play in your offices, no matter what type of industry you're in, for them to see real time, how they're moving up the ladder to win it.

Ron Kitchens: This isn't something new. So you know, go to a football game, a basketball game, any sporting event, go to Broadway shows. What do we do when people do great things? We immediately applaud. We stand up and celebrate. So, why aren't we doing that in our businesses on a daily, hourly basis?

Ron Kitchens: The technology is there. In your business, gets a new listing? That's significant. It ought to be celebrating. It should go up in fireworks on those screens and in real time, we're building energy and a culture around celebrating. It isn't just competing, because if you're in the middle of the pack and you're not going to get there, we don't want somebody pushing back and sliding back, saying well, I'll hold this back til next month. We want them celebrating it, everybody knowing that at that moment they are killing it.

Ron Kitchens: That's what human nature desires. But in business we tend to hold that back and think, well, we've got to wait until given points to celebrate, but then we go to a sporting event or we go to the theater and we're applauding when the conductor comes out and he hasn't done anything yet. We're applauding for taking the field. That's what the world has to feel more like, not less rewards and these kinds of celebrations are rewards for success.

Chantel Ray: I'll give you an example. My son is eight years old and he's on the Upward basketball team and I guess if you're eight or under, they don't keep score. Once you're over eight they do. And so, it's just like, ugh you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm sitting there keeping score. I'm like, okay, it's five to 10. You know? I'm keeping score myself. And one time I remember, we had gone to a college basketball game and their scoreboard was down. Like, I don't know what happened. The whole thing was down and people were just leaving.

Chantel Ray: They just didn't like it. You want to see a scoreboard.

Heather: You want to be engaged. So, I'm going to give you a perfect example. So when I was managing an office, we have this thing called Battle of the Contracts and although the prize is not like you know a bazillion bucks, they would get a party if they won each month.

Heather: And so what I did was, because the company'll send out reminders once a week, like this is who's in the lead, this is who's in the lead. But what I did was we made our own personal scoreboard in our office, because I believe people like to see their name in lights, whether they contributed one contract or 50 contracts. And so I wrote like, "In order to hit 100% we have to ratify this many." And we wrote one, two, three, four, five, six seven. All the way to 45 or whatever contracts we needed to ratify for that month.

Heather: And then every time they ratified one, they got to add their name to the board and they could watch as we went through the month where we were at. Okay, we're through the first week and we're 25% of the way through or whatever. And they would literally come in the office just to write their name on the board of their contracts and we won. Three out of the first four months, we won and we were like the smallest office per capita agent wise. But they were so invested in seeing, and even if it was just like one contract they were contributing, everybody got in and it was just such a morale booster. They just killed it because every person felt like they were a part of it and they wanted to get their name out there. They'd come in and they just stare at the board and they were like, okay, I'm going to be number 33. I know I'm going to be number 33. I'm going to make sure I'm bringing that contract. And I just think that's a great thing to do in your office.

Ron Kitchens: Couple of things on that. So I too coach Upward basketball and I tell ya, every one of those kids knew really what the score was. Even though we didn't keep track. You know, Chip and Dan Heath have written a great book about moments, Moment Makers and I think that's what you're talking about Heather with this idea, your name goes up there. You're part of this celebration, of this moment of working as a team but being an individual contributor to that and celebrating it and the fact that you write your own name up there is the equivalent of going up and pounding your own chest a little bit and it's about creating these moments for celebration.

Ron Kitchens: Data isn't exclusively about accountability. It's not a stick. It's not a club to beat people up with. It's a tool to accelerate people with. It's fuel for their leadership, not a harness to hold them back. And organizations that treat it negatively deserve the failure that they're going to have.

Chantel Ray: I think people who are really go getters and they're just hard chargers and they're wanting to go, they think if I take the time to do measurement, that's to constrain me, that's going to slow me down. And the truth of it is, is it's not. It's actually going to build momentum.

Chantel Ray: What tools do you guys know out there that can help entrepreneurs and leaders have these scorecards? Because you know, you need technology to help with this and you don't want it to be too hard. Do you guys know of any good technology that kind of helps create these scorecards?

Heather: We used a program called Hoopla and it's one of those gamification scorecards and it's really simple. You can connect it as easy to a Excel spreadsheet, like, an active Excel spreadsheet. But it was a good stepping stone for us. We've now been able to develop one within house, which is really awesome, but it's a good one for like small businesses or if you're just trying to get going, that was a great tool that we had that displays realtime data up there.

Heather: And don't negate just a good old dry erase board that you're just writing it up there. I mean, that's always a great way to start. And it is like, personal and so, you know, I think there's a lot of different technologies out there you can use.

Ron Kitchens: Yeah. So I'm with Heather, we've used Hoopla in the past. We use Salesforce to track lots of things, but we're right now using great big dry erase boards that all have ... Every event or strategy we're working on has a logo created for it. And so it's kind of the equivalent of the old United Way thermometer of knowing where you are on the campaign. It gets filled in with every sale, with every impact that we're having and celebrated. So, there's a bell laying there by it, so when more things get filled in, the bell gets rung and everybody stops and celebrates right then and you can see it. It's very visual. And then when it's done and we've filled that out, it comes off and the next thing goes up. And it really has a sense of ownership. So you don't have to spend a ton of money, but you have to be incredibly intentional. And that's really the hard part. That's the science and the art to it, is this intentionality.

Chantel Ray: That's great. Any other advice that you have? To me, the three things are really knowing what is that outcome, having a clear understanding of how to get there, and creating that scoreboard.

Chantel Ray: Talk about incentives that go around there. So, I'll give you one and then you guys can can talk about it. For us, we wanted to get a certain number of leads but we also wanted those leads to convert. And so we gave our media department, we said, okay, we want to make sure, we average around 22,000 leads per month. And we said, okay, we want to push that to 2,500. And so we said, okay, this week we want you guys to push for say, 700 leads coming in and then creating, you know, should you create individual incentives where you know, every person that hits it gets a gift card or group incentives? What are your thoughts on creating that scoreboard and what kind of incentives to wrap around it?

Ron Kitchens: I'll jump in on that. We begin the year with very defined corporate, team, and individual goals. So, everyone knows how their individual goals go into create the team goal, which goes into create the overall organizational goals and expectations, and then you know what percentage of those you own and are responsible for. So we're measuring and working against those consistently.

Ron Kitchens: But then the incentives at the end of the year are then based on your individual impact on all of those. So people own it, they know exactly what to expect, they know exactly how important they are in that. So, there's never any question about what exceeding those means and how they'll be compensated based on exceeding those goals. And that clarity and sense of individual ownership, but also the sense of "I only win if the team wins too." So in basketball, you may be able to have one Lebron and dominate that. One Lebron won't win a championship. And so we've got to make sure our high performers understand they're part of the team, part of an entire organization.

Heather: And I think people like they don't like doing the same contest all the time. So I think it's important to mix it up. Like we'll do, you know, maybe for a couple of weeks we'll do a group contest. We'll take a team versus a team and whoever gets all of their projects completed in X amount of time, the whole team will win something.

Heather: But then I think you also have to mix it up to where the individual, because team is great for creating peer pressure in a positive way. That's like, "Hey, what do you need me to help you fix? What can I help with this to get so our team can win?" But I think it's also good too. You know, you have to also push each person individually and like you said, if you know, if you always were just giving it to the highest performer on the team, then Lebron would win every time.

Heather: But if you would also do ones where the whole team gets something, then it gives other people the hope for a chance to win and it helps elevate their level. So, I think you have to mix it up.

Heather: And I think it all is also part of what is important to them. I think we talked about this in a previous podcast. You know, we thought, okay, we're going to create this team where we're putting our web team versus our media team and the winner's going to get lunch. And I went to them, I told them and they were like, oh, okay, that's nice. And I was like, well, what would you guys like to win? And they're like, okay, here's what we would love. We would love if you give us one eight hour day where we can work on any project we want to push the company forward.

Heather: And I was like, that's what you guys want to win? And it was just so awesome because I was pushing them with something that they were never going to ... it wasn't really exciting to them. But when they had the opportunity to get a special day where they could create a project they'd been wanting to do for the company, like something really new and exciting? That was what sparked them and then all of a sudden they were like battling, battling, battling, battling.

Heather: So I think it's important to switch it up. You have to do individual and group and also give them things that really they want to win and we'll push them to kind of that next level.

Chantel Ray: Awesome. Well Ron, thank you so much for joining us and I know that your book that you wrote Uniquely You, I love the cover, it's "Transform Your Organization by Becoming the Leader Only You Can Be." Tell everyone how do they get a copy of that, right?

Ron Kitchens: It's as they say on Amazon or wherever books are sold, you can go to RonKitchens.com and learn more about that. There's excerpts from the book. There's all kinds of special features. It really is the idea that you have what it takes to thrive and succeed, but you have to be your own unique self.

Ron Kitchens: You know, I am a terrible copy of Richard Branson. I love Richard Branson, what he's done, but if I try to beat him. I'm just a knockoff and nobody pays top dollar for a knockoff product and so I can be the best Ron Kitchens and that's enough.

Chantel Ray: So let me ask you about the Catalyst University. Tell us about that.

Ron Kitchens: So Catalyst University is what began as a one day leadership event has 3000 people. We bring in really incredible speakers to pour into leaders. It's now become an entire consulting company. We have between six and 8,000 people go through cohort based training with us around this idea that if we need just focused on business, we could be wealthy, but we will never be great.

Ron Kitchens: If we want to be great communities who want to be great organizations, we have to understand that holistically, everyone around us has to get better and be great. You know, you could have the best house imaginable, but it's in an awful neighborhood, the house will never bring the value that it would if it was in a good neighborhood.

Ron Kitchens: We believe in this idea, probably it comes from Zig Ziglar, that you can have anything you want in this world if you just help enough other people get what they want. So, by pouring into and building leaders, we that in turn we are going to thrive, and so that's what we've done and we're in year nine of that, and every year it gets bigger and better.

Chantel Ray: That's awesome. Well, if you want to find out more about Ron, go to RonKitchens.com. It's been a pleasure having you on the show, Ron. Thanks so much for joining us and we will see you all next time. Bye bye.

Ron Kitchens: Bye bye.

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