#15 5 Surefire Ways To Know If You Should Fire Someone or Keep Them (with Kelly Roach)

Show Notes

How do you know when it's the right time to fire someone? How can you tell if a team member is hurting or helping your business? Find out in this episode! Our guest today, Kelly Roach, is known as THE BUSINESS CATALYST. She helps elite business owners become game changers in their field and achieve million dollar + breakthroughs in their business. We’re so happy to have her! Kelly’s site: https://kellyroachcoaching.com A Tribe of Unstoppables Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2080754075505322/ Unstoppable Success Radio: https://kellyroachcoaching.com/podcasts/

For more resources, visit https://www.reallifeleaders.com/podcast

Have a leadership question you want answered? Email [email protected] and you might even be in an episode!

Transcript

Chantel Ray:
Hey guys, welcome to this week's episode, and today we are talking about five surefire signs to know if you should fire someone or keep them. Today, we have a very special guest. We have Kelly Roach that's here, and she is a former NFL cheerleader, turned into a million dollar mogul, and she built and led record-breaking teams in 17 locations around the US. She has got a consulting business that she's got, and we're so happy to have you on the show. Welcome Kelly.

Kelly Roach:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Chantel Ray:
Tell us a little bit more about yourself. I know that you were a former NFL cheerleader. What team were you on?

Kelly Roach:
Philadelphia Eagles, yeah.

Chantel Ray:
Oh my gosh, I don't like the Eagles, so I'm a big Redskins fan. But, that's okay, I do like you.

Kelly Roach:
Okay. It's going to be like one in 30. Right?

Chantel Ray:
Yes, yes. That's awesome. I used to be the captain of the cheerleaders as well.

Kelly Roach:
That's awesome.

Chantel Ray:
I was on a semi-professional team here locally in Hampton Roads.

Kelly Roach:
Very cool.

Chantel Ray:
I was like, the only cheerleader that I couldn't do all the other, I wasn't great at like, cartwheels and splits and everything else, but I was just good at like, leading.

Kelly Roach:
Sure, yeah, that's awesome.

Chantel Ray:
Tell us a little bit more about yourself, and what do you do and what's your mission?

Kelly Roach:
Yeah, absolutely. My mission first and foremost is to empower people economically. For me, my background in Fortune 500 before I started my company in 2012, I was responsible for coaching, leading, and training people, and to do that in the sales capacity. My entire job was to find the people, train the people, and then make the people productive. I loved it, and I fell in love with business growth strategy. I fell in love with teaching and coaching and leading people, and most importantly, growing business.

Kelly Roach:
After doing that for quite a while, I really wanted to start channeling my work into helping individuals, which is why I really started in 2012 focusing on coaching small business owners and teaching them how to successfully implement systems for sales and marketing and team building, so that I could use the skills I had developed for good, so to speak. I really wanted to focus on impacting people, impacting their families, helping them create generational wealth, you know, changing, rewriting the story for their families. That's why I'm so passionate about what I do every day.

Chantel Ray:
Awesome. Well, let's jump right in. What's sign number one that you need to know, "Hey, should I keep this person, should I fire them"? What would you say number one is?

Kelly Roach:
Yeah, so definitely number one is going to be if they cost you money instead of making you money. Right?

Chantel Ray:
I love that.

Kelly Roach:
We see this all the time, and what happens is, you know, in a team environment, in a business environment, a lot of times you work very closely with your staff. That halo effect kind of comes in, where you see through those rose colored glasses. You like the person or you think they work very hard, or you've had a relationship with them for a long time. But, at the end of the day, a business can't survive, let alone thrive, if each person isn't contributing in a meaningful way. Contributing in the business world is not just working hard, but it's actually creating a self sustaining, profitable entity.

Chantel Ray:
Yeah, and it's not easy to do to figure out each position, is this person creating a positive ROI, a return on investment, on their job. That in and of itself is a little bit of a job. Can either of you guys, and Heather, I forgot to introduce you. Of course, we have Heather [Rimick 00:03:59] here, our amazing cohost who leads with me. Can either you or Heather talk about, okay, so, how do you know, what are some ways that you can tell, give us some specific examples, how do we know if this person is giving us a positive ROI?

Heather:
Well, I have an example, and mine's about a position. We used to have a position of a photographer on staff. Which is, it sounds really awesome. We had somebody who we paid, full time employee, to go and take pictures of all of our listings. We were paying them hourly. We were paying them mileage. We were paying for their insurance and benefits and all of that.

Heather:
What we finally had to do as we were growing and scaling, we had to sit down and look at how much we were paying them, and how quick was the turnaround of when we were getting the pictures back, and how many hours was it taking them, versus if we were to outsource this and have somebody do it outside, have multiple options where we could get things done a lot faster and it's more scalable because, you know, they're going to a couple surrounding cities, but as we start to grow, how are we going to have photographers that we have on staff all over.

Heather:
We kind of sat down and put it on paper, and what we realized was, it was much more economical and scalable for our business to outsource that, because that was not a core competency of ours, and it just made so much more sense. People had an array of options that they could pick from in order to get pictures taken for their listings. It was the same exact service, but they were getting them faster and we were able to do it for a lot cheaper, and help with that return on that investment for us. That was a specific example of we had a position that we had to kind of look at and say, "Should we keep it here, or should we do it some other way?"

Chantel Ray:
It was a perfect timing, because the girl actually that we had was pregnant and decided that she wanted to stay home and be with her baby. Like you had said earlier, Kelly, it's kind of like, oh, we really liked her, we didn't want her to lose her job, but it turned out right at that same time that we were thinking about this, she was like, "Look, I'm getting ready to have a baby and I want to be a stay at home mom." Any other examples you can give, Kelly, about do they cost you money or do they make you money?

Kelly Roach:
Yeah, definitely. I think that one of the very first hires that most small business owners make is that person that is going to be kind of like their right hand person that does scheduling, managing the calendar, email, booking, whatever. What I find with my clients over and over again is they'll say, "I can't afford to hire a salesperson because I don't have enough money coming in," so we'll look at that first position that they hired for, which is that admin person. We'll say, "Okay, this person is booking your clients. They're scheduling your clients. They're doing customer service. They're interacting every single day with paying customers. How does that person monetize? How does that person contribute and add value?"

Kelly Roach:
Well, they're talking to your own clients. Are they generating referrals every week? Are they doing upsells? I literally had a client I did this with two weeks ago. She went from losing money on this particular position, exactly what I'm talking about right now, to making money by simply having this person ask two follow up questions on every phone call with their existing clients when she was interacting with them. Who else do you know that we should be working with, and what else can we be doing for you other than what we're doing right now? Within two weeks, she went from losing money on the position to making money on the position.

Chantel Ray:
I love that. Okay, let's jump into number two. What is the number two sign whether you should keep them or let them go?

Kelly Roach:
Yeah, and in no specific order, I don't even remember the order that you have.

Chantel Ray:
Yes.

Kelly Roach:
I would say, lack of adaptability, lack of flexibility. I think that it's great that we go out and we try to hire people that are experts at what they do. Right? It's important to have a level of expertise. But, in business today, it's actually much more important that someone has a high level of flexibility and adaptability, because the world is changing every 30 seconds. Right? If the world is changing that fast, and you have an employee that's immovable, that won't change with you, your company is going to ultimately struggle and stop growing because of that. Right?

Kelly Roach:
Another client I was just working with recently had a salesperson, and the salesperson was a great closer. Sent her leads, she would close them like crazy, awesome. But, this person was not willing to do prospecting, and they were a salesperson. I said to her, "You have to make a decision here because you're spending twice as much money to go generate leads to feed this person who's not willing to go out and hunt for herself, because she's not doing 50% of her job."

Kelly Roach:
She did some reworking with the staff and she's going to make some changes, but these are the kind of things as a business owner or a leader that you have to be so aware of, because if you have someone that has a lack of flexibility, it's costing you extreme amounts of money. You have to decide, is that a lack of flexibility that this person is making so much money in other areas that you're willing to accept? Or, is this a lack of flexibility that you're not willing to accept, that this person actually needs to go because of how much it's costing you and your firm?

Chantel Ray:
Awesome. Heather, do you have any examples of lack of flexibility?

Heather:
Well, I want to say, we actually try to lead with a carrot in this, in once sense. In our company, we have the adaptability award. We recognize one person in our company each year who is willing to do whatever it takes to get things done. Sometimes, that means doing something that's necessarily not in your job description, but you're going to go above and beyond to do that.

Heather:
You know, I think that sometimes, like in your example, we have people that are very successful at what they do, but they don't like doing something else. Doesn't mean they can't do it, but they don't like doing it. What I think we oftentimes do is create another position to do that part of their job that they don't like doing. You have to kind of look at it and say, is it worth the money to have someone else do something that this person should be doing, so that they can do something that they really like doing?

Heather:
An example that I kind of think of is in our recruiting. The prospecting, and in agents, and in agents. Agents don't love to prospect, and our leaders don't love to prospect. It's not fun, because you get told no a lot. It's just not someone's favorite thing. We kind of have to decide, do we hire somebody that just does the prospecting? We have done that in our call center. Our agents don't love to prospect, so we help prospect for them, and we have seen a return on that. That is something that does grow our business. You kind of have to look at the different positions, and does it work to kind of give them a helper with that? Or, should you find someone that can do it all?

Kelly Roach:
Yeah, and I think it's exactly what you said there. It's making a decision based on dollars and cents around what is the best thing for the company. I think a lot of times what I see instead is creating special positions for people that aren't willing or able to do the full scope of their job, and businesses losing their shorts over it. Because, they're creating the special positions, but the people aren't pulling their weight, meaning they're not making more money in other areas because of it. I think it's just having that balance and really looking at it strategically and holistically, versus just, how do I accommodate this particular person that is demonstrating a lack of flexibility.

Chantel Ray:
I know people will say things like, "Well, that's not part of my job description," or, "that's not part of what I'm supposed to do." When you start hearing that over and over again, when someone's like, "Well, that's not pat of my job description, I shouldn't be doing that," that's kind of a red flag. Hey, is this person this flexible person that we need? But, while I say that, I do also want to say, it is good for the person to say, "I do have specific goals that I need to achieve, so I don't want to be all over the map doing these other things." You've kind of got to balance that just a little bit. All right, tell us number three.

Kelly Roach:
Yeah, I would say you definitely don't want to have people on the team that are no longer or never were interested in personal growth. Right? When you get people that are perfectly comfortable being perfectly comfortable, that's just about the worse thing that can happen for your business. It's not that you don't need a dynamic and a mix on your team. You're always going to have the pluggers and the sluggers. Right? You're not going to have all A players, superstars that are reinventing the industry, because then you wouldn't have those people behind them that are steadying the ship. There's different types of people that you need on the team.

Kelly Roach:
But, when you have people that have no interest in personal growth, they probably are not the type of people that are going to grow, adapt, and change with the business. Once again, what happens is we start to overcompensate because they haven't grown and evolved. That lack of flexibility shows up again. That lack of adaptability. That person that says, "That's not in my job description." All of these things, right, ultimately translate your ability of your team and your company to work as a cohesive unit to move towards the future. Business in and of itself can't survive without growth, and that all starts up here, right, with the person.

Chantel Ray:
Yeah, so we have everyone on our leadership team every week, sometimes we send them the podcast to listen to and sometimes we say choose your own. Then, we spend about 15 minutes every week with everyone kind of sharing, you got two minutes to kind of sum up, hey, what are we going to do to kind of take this podcast and take it to the next level?

Chantel Ray:
Podcasts are so great, because they're free and every one, you can listen when you're in the car or driving or wherever, but it is a required piece. If you want to be on our leadership team, you've got to do it. If you go to chantelray.com/grow, chantelray.com/growtwo and chantelray.com/growthree, I put together a list of all of our favorite podcasts that we love, and you can kind of have a new one to listen to all over the map. What other suggestions would you guys say that you have for getting people excited about growing, and, you know, reading or listening and stuff like that?

Heather:
Well, we do contests. We will have whoever ... I love when people pick their own podcasts, because we get in habits of like, I have the same 10 podcasts that I listen to on a regular basis because I really love them, but sometimes people will introduce you to a new person that you haven't listened to before, a new topic. But, I love when we do, we'll do contests. It's not just about listening to the podcasts. Everybody can listen and write a summary of what they listened to, but what we reward is, how can they implement what they learned in their podcast into our business? What is something that you heard, and how can you make it?

Heather:
We will actually give prizes out at certain times and say, "Whoever comes up with the best implementation is going to get $25 gift card," or whatever it might be for that week. I love that because it will actually, you will see the people who really separate themselves from the rest, because not only will they get an idea that they are going to implement, they are going ahead and implementing it. They will say, "This was my idea and I've actually already implemented it, and here it is today for you to see." That's really exciting and that helps raise the level to the next place.

Heather:
Our web developer, for example, he'll hear something, and of course he can develop it himself because that's what he does, but he'll be like, "I have this idea," and we're like, "oh, that's so awesome." He's like, "Here it is." He shows it up on the big screen and he's like, "It's there for everyone to use now." Ideas like that just really, and just something small to give people like, they love to win something. That kind of helps raise ...

Chantel Ray:
Could be $5.

Heather:
Yeah, yeah.

Kelly Roach:
Yeah, that's great.

Chantel Ray:
Kelly, what about you?

Kelly Roach:
Yeah, so for me, I love getting the team together once a quarter and having everyone bring their dream boards together and present on what they're working towards in their life, and then what their action plan in the business to help them to achieve that is. We start off every single time by people going around and saying what they actually accomplished on their dream board since the last time we met, because we do this once a quarter.

Kelly Roach:
I think that taking time away from the business to get people thinking bigger, dreaming again, getting inspired, and then taking a step further in actually putting an action plan that supports them getting there is huge, because I think of course, we want people that are interested and excited in person growth, and there's a very small percent of the population that just does that on their own, but what we need to do as leaders is create an environment and a culture where we're exposing people to new ways of thinking and new ideas that are going to integrate and connect their personal life and their personal goals with the things that we want to see them accomplish in the business.

Chantel Ray:
Awesome. All right, number four.

Kelly Roach:
Yeah, so in at 8:00 out at 5:00. We don't live in that world anymore. Right? It doesn't mean that you don't have other priorities, right, besides the business. It doesn't mean that you don't have a family and hobbies and charities that you like to donate to and participate in and other things that are important to you outside of work. We all do. Right? But, we also all know the difference between, when it's all hands on deck, you see the people that happily and eagerly are like, "Let's go. I am on this. I am leading the charge. You don't need to tell me, because I'm already doing it," and the people that you actually have to like, hope do the right thing, and maybe even ask.

Kelly Roach:
How I know when I'm working with a leader and they need to terminate someone as quickly as possible, I had this situation come up just the other day when I was coaching someone, was that they actually had to go sit down and have a conversation with someone who wasn't meeting their goals about the fact that they needed to come in early or stay late, because they weren't meeting expectations. Well, once you have to have that conversation, that person already, you know they need to go. Because, if they don't see something wrong with walking in at 8:00 and walking out at 5:00 when they're not meeting expectation, that's not someone that's going to help your company to achieve their ultimate goals. Right? They've already made the decision in their actions.

Chantel Ray:
I love it. Heather?

Heather:
I would say, yes, 100% agree. Now that we're in a mobile world, work just doesn't end at 5:00. It happens all the time, and we all know that better than anyone that life happens as well. It's just finding that right balance of being able to do both. You know, it's having that grit. It all comes down to grit. People with grit, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day I have gotten my kids in bed, we fed everyone, we've been to practices, and it's 9:00. Believe me, I just want to get in bed, I do. I know that I still have X, Y, Z to finish before I come in tomorrow, because otherwise you get behind, and then you get behind and then you get behind. You just have to have the grit to say, "I'm going to work 30 more minutes, I'm going to work an hour more and get stuff done."

Heather:
I'm happy to say that we do have a lot of people on our management team that really just, they work that extra mile. We're actually doing a contest right now. One of the things we do is we help people set stretch goals. We really want to help them just, don't just come in and do your same job task every day. Like, how can we help you take it to the next level? Every so many weeks, we want them to set a stretch goal. Like, every two or three weeks, one of their goals or two of their goals need to be something that they're really going to have to put the extra effort in to hit it each week.

Heather:
We're doing a contest right now where, everyone had to commit to three stretch goals for this week, and at the end of the day on Friday we're taking them out to do, everyone who hits their stretch goals gets to go out and to a team activity together. Just kind of getting that team camaraderie together and helping them hit that goal. Today, someone was like, "I'm not going to hit," he made a big stretch goal and he's like, "I'm not going to hit it." I looked at him and said, "Yes, you are. I don't care if we have to stay up until 3:00AM, we are hitting our stretch goals. This is something we're committed to do and we're going to do it." It kind of gets them like, revved up and like, "Okay, I can do it." That really helps that team camaraderie and helps push people to do something more than just the norm.

Chantel Ray:
I think it's also a matter of you setting up minimum expectations and goal expectations. Because, here's the bottom line. For every single position we say, "Okay, here's your minimum standard." Let's just say our recruiter's got to meet with three people a week, but then we say, "Okay, but your goal is five." But, that way, we're tracking it and going, "Hey, if every week you're only hitting the minimum expectation, you're not committed to going above and beyond." The people we want on our team is people who are going above and beyond. Sometimes you should be hitting a four or a five. If every week you're only hitting twos and only hitting threes, you're not really the right fit for us, because you're not going above and beyond and making it happen.

Kelly Roach:
Yep.

Chantel Ray:
All right, let's give the final one, number five. What is it?

Kelly Roach:
Yeah, so oldest one in the book but it still rings true, and that's if you're not a team player, this isn't home for you. Right? Because, at the end of the day, there's going to be, everyone in your company and everyone on your team is going to have high highs, and they're going to have low lows. There's going to be times where they need to get up to bat and support someone else on the team that's having a bad month, and step up and step in, and there's going to be times where they're the ones having a bad month and they hope that other people will step in. When you have a person on the team that is about the me instead of the we, you pretty much know it's time for them to go.

Chantel Ray:
Give us, like, an example. Can either of you guys give an example, very specific, of someone who you had on the team and they just really weren't really a team player? Specifically, like, what does that mean? Unwrap that just a little bit.

Kelly Roach:
Yeah, definitely I can give an example. I had a manager that worked for me back a while ago. You know, she was a brilliant individual producer. Moved into a management role, really desired to be a leader and to be a manager, but never switched over to the mindset of focusing on putting her people first. When things went wrong, it was her people's fault. When things went right, they were her doing.

Kelly Roach:
I had to remove her. Unfortunately, she had very high turnover on the team. The performance of the group went down substantially under her leadership, because she was all about the me and not about the we. She took people that, after she left, really rose and performed at a really high level that were kind of being held down, because like I said, when it went wrong, it was their fault. But, when it went right, it was her results. She had to go.

Chantel Ray:
Got you. Heather, can you think of something?

Heather:
I can think of a time we had an agent who was very, very driven, and they were very driven for themselves and they would kind of take down anyone that was in their way. It kind of got to the point that, when people came into, like they would drive up to the office, if they saw their car there, they were like, "I'm going to work from home today. I am not even getting involved in that." But, they were a very, very high producer. Typically, these people that are the me and not the team people, are your high producers. They are bringing in a lot of money for your company or they're helping your company be really successful.

Heather:
It got to the point where we kind of had to make a decision that this just wasn't the place for them anymore, even though that meant that we were losing one of our top performers. But, we didn't realize that, once they were gone, the culture just rose and all of these people who were mediocre were able to rise to the top because that top person was just taking everyone out. A lot of times, it is going to be your top tier person, because they are the top because they're very driven and they will do whatever they can do get it for them and not necessarily the good of the team. But, you know, sometimes you have to make those decisions, and then you'll see the team come together in the end once that is removed.

Chantel Ray:
Yeah, and I think the only other thing I can think of is just negativity or gossip.

Kelly Roach:
Yes.

Chantel Ray:
Somebody who is just really a negative force. They're constantly gossiping. We work with a loan company that we kind of partner with and send people to get loans with, and they just told me a story about a really top producer that was just constantly gossiping about people. She was just always negative, and I don't know if she was number one or number tow. I mean, very, very high up on the list. They just fired her, and everybody was like, it was like mouth wide open, eyes wide open. Everyone was like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe they fired that person."

Chantel Ray:
But, I think that takes a lot of guts and a lot of cojones on the leadership part. When I found out they did that, I kind of just had just a higher level of respect for that company. They were like, "Look, you know, we're not going to tolerate that. We don't care what your production is. We value the rest of the people on the team and we don't want that negativity and that gossip coming around, and we have a no gossip policy. Unfortunately, we're squashing that and you're fired." Well, any last minute thoughts on anything that you guys can say to someone if they're like, looking at somebody and they're saying, "Look, should I fire them? Should I keep them? I don't know. I keep going back and forth. I'm torn." Last minute thoughts. Kelly?

Kelly Roach:
I would say listen to your gut, because in almost every instance where I've had a leader that needed to make a change and did or didn't, right, to the good or to the bad, in hindsight their gut was right every single time. Listen to your gut and trust the intuition of what you're feeling about the people that you're trying to make a decision on.

Chantel Ray:
Heather?

Heather:
That's good. I always say, you know, if you can't coach them up, then you need to coach them out. That is just, and don't wait. You have to do it quickly. The longer you wait, the harder it becomes and the more damage it causes. You have to do it quickly.

Kelly Roach:
Agreed.

Chantel Ray:
Yeah, I agree. I think it needs to be very written specific goals that says, "Hey, listen. Here's something that we're struggling with," and make it very clear, "A, B, C, D. We're going to evaluate in 15 days, we're going to do another evaluation in 30 days." Then, if that 15 days comes up or that 30 days comes up and they're not doing it, then you've got to go ahead and not make excuses and go ahead and pull the trigger.

Kelly Roach:
Yeah.

Chantel Ray:
Well, this has been amazing. Kelly, tell people if they want to learn more about your coaching, and you have your own podcast. Correct?

Kelly Roach:
Yeah, yeah.

Chantel Ray:
All right, tell us all about it. If people want to know more about you, learn more about your coaching or your podcast, how do they find out about you?

Kelly Roach:
Yeah, definitely. Well, my favorite place to hang out online is my private Facebook group. It's called The Tribe of Unstoppables, and I teach live business lessons for free there every single Tuesday night. It's a party, it's amazing people, it's a great place to come hang out. My podcast is called Unstoppable Success Radio. We release new episodes every single week on mindset, strategy, and tactic that are going to help you to elevate strategically to build your personal and business brand.

Chantel Ray:
I love it, I love it. We'll put all that in the show notes for everyone just so they can have it handy. If you guys have a question that you want answered, please contact us, we'll put that in the show notes. We'll see you guys next time, bye bye.

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