#16 Starters and Finishers

Show Notes

Is it possible to find someone who is really good at starting projects and knows how to see them through to completion? How can we motivate our team members when they are stuck? In this episode, we are going to explore the idea of identifying, hiring and coaching team members who are starters and those who are finishers. DISC Personality Test: http://www.careerdirectonline.org/personalityID/ Follow Thomas Lane: https://www.facebook.com/ThomasLaneVA/

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Chantel Ray:                 Hey guys, welcome to the Real Life Leadership podcast where we share real life stories from real life leaders to help you become a better leader in your organization and we were just talking about the fact that some of our stories are a little too real.

Thomas Lane:               It's about to get real. Right up here.

Chantel Ray:                 So I'm excited about this episode, I'm so excited, we always have Heather [Roemmich 00:00:22] who is our COO and one of our favorite pastors from Ascent Church, Thomas Lane.

Thomas Lane:               Does this make me a regular now?

Chantel Ray:                 Yes.

Thomas Lane:               I'm a regular. It's official.

Chantel Ray:                 Yes.

Thomas Lane:               There you go.

Chantel Ray:                 It's like, you guys are the regulars.

Thomas Lane:               Love it.

Chantel Ray:                 So, let's talk about how do you find people who are starters and finishers and what I mean by that is there's tons of people out there that are like, "Oh, I can start this project and start this and start this and start this," but they never finish it and there's other people who are you like, "Well I'm not going to be able to start anything but I'll be happy to finish it if you tell me what to do." So what do you think is the key to go before we even hire them let's talk about before we hire them and we go, "Okay, what do we need to look at to see if they are that person?"

Heather:                       Well, I always use the DISC profiling, I think that's the easiest way and I think you need to figure out does this position require a starter and a finisher or is this position a starter position or a finisher? Because I think there are some that are just finishers and there are some that are starters and then you need to decide which way you need to go with it.

Chantel Ray:                 Wait, so let's expand on that. So what would you say would be a position where all they need to do is ...

Heather:                       Finish?

Chantel Ray:                 Or start.

Heather:                       Yeah sure. A finisher I think is just your every day admin. They have tasks to complete every day, they don't have to come up with new content, they just need to come in and do their same job every single day. We just need them to complete a task list every day, that's a finisher. You don't need them to come up with new stuff technically.

Thomas Lane:               My starters are like the dreamers, like the big picture leaders, always doing, which is good and bad because I mean, kind of just what you touched on there's a thousand things going at once. These are the people I really feel like I have to be the brakes to, you know what I'm saying? Almost slow down, take a breath, what is the best thing we need to focus on here and today? And really knocking that out. But no, that's fine. That's a good image. It's a good image.

Chantel Ray:                 Well I think there's also a difference, what would you say is the difference between someone who's a starter and a finisher versus a doer and a thinker? How are those different?

Thomas Lane:               That's tough. I think they're definitely related. That's hard. That's a really challenging question.

Heather:                       Well, I think that a thinker, the difference between a thinker a starter is that a starter actually creates the idea and gets it going where a thinker just has the idea.

Chantel Ray:                 Thank you, yes.

Heather:                       And so, that's the difference and you definitely have different places for them in that organization, because there is a clear difference. There are people that have great ideas and they get it step one, but they can't bring it to step two, three and four because they now had another squirrel and then they're like, starter number two and then they've started that one.

Chantel Ray:                 I would say my biggest frustration as a leader actually is the starter finisher, because if you go look at my office, I literally have things on my desk where I'm like, "Okay, I need you to complete this, this, this and this," and I have it all written down because of this whole idea that people kind of go, they start, they start, they start, they start and they just don't have it in them to finish. So what would you say are some tricks or tips to get people to finish?

Heather:                       So, her office does look like a rainbow in case you were wondering. One of the things that I think that we have to do is, especially if you're in a fast moving organization, so we're not a marathon starter finisher, we're the hundred yard dash starting finisher, that's how quickly we move and so, it's one thing to have somebody who's a starter finisher and another who's a starter finisher quickly and efficiently. And so, one of the things that I think that we do that's really helping move this process along because it is the biggest line of frustration I would say in most organizations is saying, "These three items are going to get done this week, and I don't care what has to happen but we have to remove these three items off of the list," and so having them have these goals that we meet and I actually write them on my wall.

Chantel Ray:                 Well, I want each to give a very specific story of a frustration for you, I mean we said we're going to be real, right?

Heather:                       I'll go first.

Chantel Ray:                 So just what did they do that made you frustrated? Where you were like, "You're just not finishing this."

Heather:                       So, we have a wonderful web department, I will start off my saying that.

Thomas Lane:               Yes.

Heather:                       And so, we have a new website we launched just a couple days ago, and they've been working on it for several weeks now and last week we talked to them at the beginning of the week and we were like, "Let's finish up these final touches so we can kind of get it going," and then we didn't hear anything else. So we met with them on Friday and we said, "Hey, what's going on the website?" And they're like, "Oh, that's been ready, we just are waiting." Waiting on what? They didn't say, "Hey, we're ready now to launch, who needs to check this so we can switch it on the server?" And it's so frustrating because it's projects like that, that get started and then they just go off into space until somebody asks about it and they're like, "Oh yeah, it's time to bring that back in and let's move it along," instead of just finishing it to completion and moving it forward.

Chantel Ray:                 All right, T. Lane what about you?

Thomas Lane:               For us it's all about Sunday, obviously but there's always things on Sunday we start implement similar to that and they just kind of float around.

Chantel Ray:                 Give me something specific.

Thomas Lane:               Or they're 75% done. I'll give you a great example, over the last six months we've always had the audio podcast, we started the YouTube channel, which was hit or miss, so that means we have to have a camera, we have to record it, we have to edit it, we have to make sure the lighting's good. We have new lights at church, we have floor lights, we have vertical lights, we have a confidence monitor, which is the words in case the band gets off or in case people get lost it gives me a timer so I don't talk all day, which is helpful for everybody. But everything was about 80% done. The system wasn't complete, we would start something, not perfect and then move on to something else and it just made a complete mess on Sunday. A wire wasn't taped down, someone would trip. Someone was handing the video file off for YouTube so we forgot to update YouTube. The team was so excited to implement new things they weren't perfecting the process before moving on to the next and it just made a huge train wreck.

Chantel Ray:                 Okay so, let me just recap what I heard you say. So you're saying, okay we had this great idea, we said we want to film every episode and put it on YouTube and then make best clips and put them on Facebook, right?

Thomas Lane:               That's what we do, yes.

Chantel Ray:                 So, did it ever get videoed all the way? Or you're saying that maybe some days didn't happen.

Thomas Lane:               I mean on Sunday for example it was set up, I think we missed the first service, we only recorded the second. Some weeks it wasn't properly communicated to the whole team, one guy recorded it, I don't think he had the little, I don't even know what you call it, he didn't have a way to capture it, so you're sitting with the camera but it didn't actually record anything.

Chantel Ray:                 He didn't have the memory card.

Thomas Lane:               Yeah, he didn't have the memory card. It was a bummer. So if you look back on YouTube, there's a few weeks we don't have anything and I think it's because my team is young, they're passionate. It's like the person who has 30 browsers open at the same time. You go in the room there's this project, this project, I have to be one track minded. I have to be focused, but some folks, we're doing a lot of things and on Sunday's we have an hour and half and for us I think it's different, we have this little chunk of time to get in the middle school, unload the trailer, set up and execute and we expect excellence. We expect perfection, some folks will give church one shot and so, we want to give them the best distraction free experience possible and those little things add up.

Chantel Ray:                 Okay so, to fix that, what would you say now looking back on it, if we say, "This is important," right? Because honestly that is really important because there's some Sundays where someone's sick, they're like, "I'm not going to church on Sunday."

Thomas Lane:               Someone's deployed, just had a baby, there's always people who are counting on that.

Chantel Ray:                 Yeah, so that's important and it is way more powerful to watch it on YouTube then it is just to hear it, so we have to say as the staff, "Hey, this is really important," so now what would you do to go, "Okay, this is really important, how do we fix it?"

Thomas Lane:               I mean, for us, it's really an after action review, which we do every Monday, making sure what we did right, what we did wrong, did we fully prepare? Did everyone know about it? Because it sounds like with the website thing some people were in the dark, some people didn't fully understand it. I might fully know the process but if the whole team doesn't, things are going to get messy. [crosstalk 00:09:08] take the memory card out, oops.

Chantel Ray:                 I would say a checklist, first of all. So the first thing is, is that way no one can say, "Hey, do I know about it or not?" Right? All these little things, someone has to be in charge of going, "Before we leave, this is very important. Do we have the memory card? Do we have the lights? Do we have the camera? Do we have that?" That would be one and then the second thing that would be really important would be then the checklist that takes it to the next level, so that's just recording it, now we have a checklist for this.

Heather:                       So, I'm having an idea here.

Thomas Lane:               I love it!

Heather:                       So we have lots of lists, right? So she has her colorful rainbow wall, which is great because she's very visual, so she needs to see it but we have this list on our team site that lists everybody's what they have on their to do list, right? Whether it's I want you to research something or whatever. And that's great and you can look at them but what I really think we need to see it more visually than just having it in a list is an activity tracker. And so, instead of just adding it in a list in a sheet, once it gets added to your activity tracker, you need to see where it is at. So you could easily look at your team and say, "Where am I at on all of these projects?" They can mark it as they go, ready for review and you could see that, so that it's much easier to track than just looking at a list and being like, "No, I haven't started that yet, no I haven't started that yet," I think it would be powerful to see it on the big scale.

Chantel Ray:                 I also think for this video one that you talked about, what I would do is I would hire, not hire, but I would get a volunteer that your job, you only have one job, your volunteer job is to make sure we have all these things that it's recorded and that it goes to. Now you can utilize all of our staff, but your only job every week is to do that. That would be a good idea.

Thomas Lane:               For sure.

Chantel Ray:                 And I think that a lot of times people think, "That probably just in and of itself would be maybe a three hour commitment," really. It's not that big of a commitment for someone to do that, and announcing it. Like almost a spotlight for the week, because otherwise there's people who want to serve but they're like, "I don't want to serve in children's ministry."

Thomas Lane:               That's the one people go to first.

Chantel Ray:                 "I don't want to do donuts. I don't want to be a greeter," and you almost have a spotlight each week where you'd say, "This week this is our need. If this is would you'd like to do the time commitment is this," isn't that good?

Thomas Lane:               We'll train you, we'll give you everything. And even to see the impact. To say, "Hey, this reaching these hundreds of people."

Chantel Ray:                 Would you be willing to try that?

Thomas Lane:               Absolutely. That's a great idea.

Chantel Ray:                 And then let's see because everything that needs to be done but in addition to that one piece, my other advice would be there's one person on staff that it's their responsibility, so I would look at them and go, "Okay Bob, if it doesn't get done this week, it doesn't matter that Susie didn't do it, da-da-da didn't do it, if it doesn't get done, it's coming down on you."

Thomas Lane:               It's on you.

Chantel Ray:                 It doesn't matter if the volunteer was out of town, it didn't matter if this happened. Putting each person in charge of these four things and if it doesn't happen on Sunday, we're coming back to you and saying, "Uh, uh, uh."

Thomas Lane:               We're having a conversation.

Chantel Ray:                 This didn't work out.

Heather:                       Yes.

Chantel Ray:                 All right, what else on this starter and finisher? What are some other examples of things that you say? I think it's more for me, it's not a starting problem. For me it's a finishing problem.

Thomas Lane:               Yeah, I see most people have a difficulty with finishing not starting. I think starting is fun, it's sexy, it's exciting, vision, what if this happened? But finishing is the hard thing, to actually grind it out, see it to completion, I think that's why it's difficult for people and for me to. Starting is easy, sticking it out, being patient, suffering through the challenges of it, that's hard.

Heather:                       And to be honest with you, I think that's a lot of the reason why people don't end up finishing is because in order to finish you will fail. Nothing that gets started, there's very few things that you end up starting that just are perfect from start to finish and a lot of the people that are finishers are perfectionists, right? That's why they're really good finishers, they're not good starters because that's just not part of their personality, and the people that are starters, they get to a point and then they're like, "Oh gosh, this idea that I had is going to work out," and they're afraid to fail, to modify. It reminds me of something we listened to recently and they talked about jumping out of an airplane and one of my higher DISC profiles is a CM detail, so before anything, I don't care if it's like, I'm about to buy something about the grocery store, to a big decision, my mind automatically goes through every possibly scenario, right? I'm like, "Oh gosh, I'm going to get this watermelon, now it could be rotten I'm not sure, so I'm going to knock on it."

I go through all the process to pick a watermelon out, so for me I'm going through every possible scenario before we actually get to something because I'm picturing it all out, and you build yourself up to this big level of fear that you almost don't want to get it to the finish line because you're like, "Oh gosh, all these bad things could possibly happen," but they give the example of when you get ready to jump out of the plane you're nervous, nervous, nervous, nervous, you're like, "Oh gosh, should I go?" And they say the minute you jump, all fear is gone and I think that's what happens. Once you finally make a decision, you feel so much better. You're like, "That was so stupid to think of all these different scenarios."

Chantel Ray:                 It is so hot in here. I am sweating.

Heather:                       She's looking around.

Chantel Ray:                 I feel like I'm excited because I feel like my thyroid's functioning but I'd love to put up on this screen if we can, the DISC score. But do you know the DISC score? Are you familiar with it?

Thomas Lane:               I do. I've been really into the enneagram lately, have y'all ever played with that?

Chantel Ray:                 I've played with it a little bit.

Thomas Lane:               That's what I've been into lately. I love the DISC, the disc is solid.

Chantel Ray:                 All right so, explain to everyone, what is a D, what is an I, what is an S and what is a C.

Thomas Lane:               I know I'm a DI and that's all I really know. I don't even remember what the S is.

Chantel Ray:                 Okay so, give us a brief overview of what a D, an I, an S and a C.

Thomas Lane:               What are you? I want to know.

Chantel Ray:                 I'll tell you right after she tells you, yes.

Heather:                       Okay so, D is direct, demanding, decisive, they like things done quickly, chop, chop. Task orientated, like let's get it done, move it forward, managers, leader they are big picture thinkers and triggers. I's are fun, life of the party, everyone likes to be around them. They don't like to work alone, they like to be in groups, don't sit them in a cubicle by themselves they will wander, find other people to talk to. They're just a really good, fun people person. S's are very steady, they like to do the same thing over and over again. They don't love change, they love to have the same task lists and let me just do it every day and I'll do it at my best. They're very empathetic, they are very compassionate towards people, so you can go and they'll listen to all your problems and then C's are very detailed researchers. They will make decisions but they're going to have all the facts before they make a decision. They like things in order, they're very orderly, like an accountant would be a very high C.

Thomas Lane:               Cool.

Chantel Ray:                 So, right up here, here's the DISC course, so what would you say one, two, three, four, if you had to put in place what you are, what would you say you are T. Lane?

Thomas Lane:               I'm definitely a DI, probably D1 and then I2. An S is super, super low.

Chantel Ray:                 So DICS would be yours?

Thomas Lane:               Yes. S is not even ...

Chantel Ray:                 Not even there?

Thomas Lane:               Yeah, it's gone. It's not even on chart.

Heather:                       Which is funny because you're a pastor, so you have to turn on your S at some point.

Thomas Lane:               It's so funny, I say this but a lot of times I'm not super pastoral. I think most people think pastor they think calm, I'm not very calm, I'm not very gentle, I'm more aggressive.

Chantel Ray:                 And I love it. So I'm off the charts D.

Thomas Lane:               Yeah, I can tell.

Chantel Ray:                 So over the top D and I'm also really, really high I. So I'm super high D, high I and then I'm a C and then I'm an S. Heather?

Heather:                       I'm a CD and then probably an SI.

Chantel Ray:                 And this the thing with Heather, every time you ask her, I'm glad that we have this saved and we're recording because every time you ask her she changes it just a little.

Heather:                       Today I would tell you I'm a D.

Thomas Lane:               I haven't taken it in years and part of me thinks I need to retake it but I feel like it's pretty accurate.

Chantel Ray:                 I'll send it to you. And by the way, if you want to take the DISC score we have a free copy, we'll put it in the show notes and you can get it for free. By the way, all of our show notes are transcribed, so we transcribe them all, so if you are more of a reader and want to go back and listen to any of this you can. I think I have found one of the solutions to get people to finish and what I believe is that what I've done for a lot of years is I've had too many people under my direct report. And so, if you've got too many people under you directly and you're trying to manage all those different things, so let's just say you're a leader and let's say you've got 15 people that work in your company, if you've got you and then you're managing these 15 people, you can make sure that they're doing everything that they need to do, it's just way to many people, way too many tasks.

Thomas Lane:               You'd never get anything done.

Chantel Ray:                 No.

Thomas Lane:               Just watching over them.

Chantel Ray:                 So my suggestion is ideally you'd have no more than four but at the maximum five people and these people and you can keep up with that but four would be the ideal and you just go, "These are the four people, you do that," and then anyone else they have a direct report but there's the key to it. This is the biggest key, whoever is in this down line has to be over the top D, and if they're not ...

Heather:                       Then you're managing all their people.

Chantel Ray:                 So what's been happening before is that I've done that where I've had these other people but the people here where an S. As a perfect example, we had a girl, she was an S and she was supposed to be managing these people it's like, uh.

Thomas Lane:               Didn't work.

Chantel Ray:                 And then you're now getting frustrated because this whole down line of you is not working, or they're a high I, one of the people in this down line that we have is a high I. Talk about frustration. No seriously, it's just straight frustration because he's got a bunch of people under here, he's not managing them. So I'm going to him going, "Okay, was this done? Was this done? Was this done?" And it's not. That's one huge one and I'll give you a perfect example of something, we just had a small project that we gave to someone and it literally could have been done in five minutes, okay? So I gave it to Heather and I said, "Can you make sure this is done?" I said, "Please make sure this is done by the end of the day." I need to get that out of my head space, right? Because I tell people all the time, "Think about how many things, it's like this ball and this ball and this ball, all of them in my head," I need to be able to go squish, oh look and I have a prop."

Thomas Lane:               There you go!

Chantel Ray:                 Oh my gosh, look at this.

Thomas Lane:               Perfect.

Heather:                       Yes.

Chantel Ray:                 This is the best prop.

Heather:                       This is your brain on ideas.

Chantel Ray:                 Yes. And so, every time I know that this idea's done, I can now put it over here but if I don't know that the job has been finished, it keeps in my brain this whole time right here and one of the things I tell people is, if I have to come to you and say to you again, was this done? You failed. You failed.

Heather:                       And people will say, they'll say. "Well I didn't bother you." And she'll tell them, "I'd much rather you email me at six o'clock and say, "Just FYI this was done," so she could take it off her plate. The example was I knew she had people over last night but we had a big issue I was working on yesterday and I tried to call her and she didn't answer, I knew she had guests over, so I just text her said, "I just wanted to let you know I have answers to what you needed but we talk about it in the morning." If she wanted to know the answer right then she would have called me but she wrote back, "Okay." And first thing this morning she called me, but she knew what I was talking about and she knew we'll talk about that in morning and could take it off of her brain that night.

Thomas Lane:               I've learned that soon means a lot to different people. For me soon means immediately, now but I could say, "I need this done soon or I need this done now," but for me that means stop everything you're doing and do it. And some people, I've learned I have to give a very clear deadline of I expect it done at this time, I need to know about it or not, either way.

Chantel Ray:                 Either way, if it's not completed, if it's not completed you still need to send me an email.

Thomas Lane:               Exactly.

Chantel Ray:                 Just so you know I know you wanted this done by the end of the day, however this, this and this came up, it will now be completed by the end of the day tomorrow. One of the things that we did is this is dry erase paint, so we've been kind of having people say their three things that they're going to accomplish no matter what and put it up on the dry erase board and then doing something fun to celebrate at the end of the week if you achieve those goals. What else have you done to kind of help getting people to finish the projects?

Thomas Lane:               This is a strange thing to say because I communicate for a living but I don't communicate well the reason behind it all the time. Sometimes it's super clear to me but I don't know make that clear to whoever I'm asking to do the task or the oversight of the job, but bringing them alongside me, or coming alongside them and making them understand why it's important, and why it needs to be done and ow it fits into the big picture. I've noticed that helps people finish, and that's not something I do super well. I have to remind myself that hey, not everyone's up here, they don't understand how this plays in, why we have to finish this first and then we can move on to that, but I've learned when that click, when that light bulb goes off I see a change and that's something I'm personally working on in my leadership to hand off to my team.

Chantel Ray:                 One of the things that we've asked people to do at our company but we just stopped it and I'm not sure why we did, I think it's because people just said, "You know what? That feels like it's micromanaging," so we were like, "Well we don't want to feel micromanaging, so let's get rid of that." But what we had them do at the end and it was really fantastic, at the end of the day they would send their manager a list and it would just be here's all the things I'm still working on and here's the things I've accomplished. That's it.

Heather:                       It's like a download. A daily download.

Chantel Ray:                 It was a daily download that you send to your manager that says here's what I've got to do and here's what I haven't accomplished yet, or what I have accomplished and I think we stopped it really for that reason, what is your thoughts on doing that?

Thomas Lane:               I think it's good and bad. I think if someone has a struggle finishing, I think that accountability's good. If someone is a go getter, a strong D perhaps, I could see them feeling micromanaged, you know what I'm saying? I could see if I'm always doing things on time or going above and beyond almost looking like, do y'all trust me? Have I proven I'm not trustworthy? But I would say it's a case by case thing. If someone has shown me that they need that accountability, I think it may be really fitting.

Chantel Ray:                 And I think actually what we did was we had people do it, now that I'm thinking about it I'm like, "Why aren't we getting those anymore?" Now I think I remember. What we did is we implemented it for the first 30 days of your employment and we haven't had anyone new in a while, we've kind of thank goodness, kept our team.

Heather:                       Woo hoo!

Chantel Ray:                 But that is one thing we did, so for the first 30 days or was it 30 days or 90 days? I can't remember, but anyway, we said, "Do this for the first 30 days kind of so we can see are you on the right track in where we want to go and then after 30 days you don't have to do it anymore."

Heather:                       Well, I'm glad you're talking about bringing people on the team to because one of the things is like, how do you find out if somebody's a starter or a finisher before you bring them on? So, one, what DISC scores are you looking for? Why is it so hard to find a starter and a finisher, somebody who can do both? And I think it's because I believe that the starter finisher DISC course, the DC, and I feel that it's not a common DISC score, it's just not one you see. You see DI's a lot, somebody's who's an ID is also typically going to be outgoing, it's just what you see in the norm or they're the CS, they're detailed and they're just like the steady Eddy, they don't necessarily wanting to do anything out of the ordinary. I think the DC's are a little harder to find, you can find them but they're a little harder.

Chantel Ray:                 And if you look at that right here, see how it says on this side these people who are DC's are task oriented and the IS's are people oriented? And then the DI's are outgoing and then the CS's are reserved. Absolutely, and that goes back to right here the best person to be on the top of this, they can be a DC or a DI, or a CD. The problem with a CD is that they are a lot of times so into perfection that it depends how high their C is and how high their D is, but you really need to make sure that those people are extraordinarily high, high D's and when you're interviewing them, the two things we do is we have them take the test, but we also validate it and what I mean by that is, so we have you take the test but then we say to you, "I want you to look at this very honestly and I want you to rank it one, two, three, four," and that's what we mean by validating. Sometimes we'll have them take two DISC tests.

Heather:                       Because what they'll usually do is say, "Oh, I remember taking that, let me pull it out," and I say, "No, don't pull that out. I actually going to read you some different character traits and I want you to tell me what you think sounds like you." And I always tell them, "You're going to have traits in all of them," I say, "We have a little bit of all of this in use otherwise we'd really weird but I want you to pick the ones that sound most like you to least like you and rank them," and then you can kind of validate. A lot of times people will try to answer a personality test to what they think you want them to be and they're like, "Oh I thought this job wanted this type of person," and so, once you kind of have them rate their character traits they come a little bit off guard and they'll give you a more honest answer. But I think you also have to ask questions in the interview.

Chantel Ray:                 So what would those questions look like? So if you were going to hire someone, obviously this is super important, we want to know what their DISC score but what other questions would you ask someone to make sure that they are a starter or a finisher?

Thomas Lane:               Well for me it's definitely a little different, but I mean for me it's a simple as the last time you started a task or a project and saw it to completion. And if someone is like, "Well, I don't ... " If they're hesitant on that I think it's clear their finishing is not their sweet spot. Starting is easy, if I asked you what's something you started, everyone started a workout program or a diet, or a thing but when's the last time you saw it to completion and where's it at now? That I think reveals a lot. And if you can't think of something quick, because I can think of a lot of things I have started but finishing, it's tricky. It's so challenging and hard.

Chantel Ray:                 I would say another thing is when I look at where they last worked, I would look at what their job was and so, if somebody was an office manager of a small office or a medium sized office that was growing, they would have to do this, they have to do this, they have to start this and finish this. Let's say you worked at Geico and all you did was answer the phones, well again, you're just doing that same job over and over, they don't even have the skills and the experience to start a new project and come up with it to take it to completion. What else, Heather?

Heather:                       I usually will ask, say, "Give me an example of something that you implemented in your last job or in a non-profit you're working in or an organization you're a part of and how did it turn out for you? Give me an example." And if they're like, "Well I've never really done that," then you know they're not a starter.

Thomas Lane:               Sure.

Heather:                       And if they do give you an example and they say, "Well I did this and we hit a roadblock here but then we persevered through," then you know they can get through different things you're going to give them and different roadblocks are going to hit.

Chantel Ray:                 All right, this is going to be a tough question because it's going to be how do you decide when is enough is enough? You're just like, "I can't babysit you anymore? I just can't babysit you anymore, I'm tired. You said you were going to do this, you said you were going to do this, it's just I can't get you to cross that finish line over and over again," what would you say is you're just not the right fit, we can try this all day long but you're not the right fit, how would you decide that?

Heather:                       Well the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and not getting a different result.

Thomas Lane:               Sure and it absolutely is.

Heather:                       And we do that a lot of times because we really like people and we value them and we see potential but if we're not seeing progress going forward its time to have that conversation, say, "I love you and I value on our team and I think you'll be a great support person but I have to get somebody in place because I can no longer manage your department," and it's a tough conversation, it's not a conversation that you of course want to have but sometimes they have to sense the frustration. I will admit I am there in a point right now and they know that I'm frustrated with them because I can't do it any longer and it's uncomfortable for them because I'm not pleasant towards them anymore because I'm just like, "Why are we doing this again today?" And they need to be in a role they can thrive in and putting somebody in a role that they just can't succeed in it makes their life miserable to and we have to put things in place to make sure that they can succeed.

Thomas Lane:               If someone is constantly in a role and they're constantly failing, at some point they've got to be frustrated as much as we are, so I think it's almost freeing saying, "Okay, we realized this is not the best situation."

Chantel Ray:                 And I saw this great post that was on Facebook a couple days ago and it was two ladies and it said, "These two ladies were complete strangers. They were the last two people to finish the marathon and they never knew each other but they met each other on the run and they held hands and they crossed the finish line together of the marathon." And that was a really powerful thing for me because that day I was very frustrated with someone on our team that just wasn't doing what they needed to and that's what made me come up with this idea. This person actually asked us because we were going to hire a director of technology and they came to us and said, "Can we be the director of technology?"

And we just were very blunt and we said, "No, you can't and the reason why is because you're amazing at starting, starting, starting, starting, starting, but guess what? Just like that marathon person, you need somebody to help you hold your hand to get you to the finish line. And that's okay, it doesn't mean you're not an amazing person and it doesn't mean we don't want you on our team, we love you but because of the way God wired you, because over here you're an IS, you need somebody who's a DC to hold your hand and cross you to the finish line." So there it is.

Thomas Lane:               Boom.

Chantel Ray:                 We'll see you next time. Buh-bye.


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